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Veteran's Actions Violate Meaning Of U.S. Flag

Abstract:
Last week in Reno, Nev., an American veteran named Jim Brossard pulled up outside of a local Hispanic-owned bar. Brossard had heard of the bar on local talk radio and had heard that a flagpole outside the bar was flying two flags, one Mexican, the other American....

  • Displaying 1 - 21 of 21

Jed

posted 10/12/07 @ 6:30 AM EST

""It's probable that the bar owner meant no offense""

Please tell me how a citizen (which the bar owner claimed to be) does not know what he was doing would be taken as an offense? Anyone with any sense would know that to fly a forigen nations flag over the one of the nation you are in is an offense in any country.

""anti-Hispanic sentiment sweeping the country""

Meaning I have no argument that is in the right so I will play the race card.

Ethan

posted 10/14/07 @ 12:55 PM EST

Actually, in most countries it is customary to lower your flag to the flag of a visiting country as a sign of respect. The Unites States is the only nation which refuses to do so.

Originally posted by

Jed

""It's probable that the bar owner meant no offense""

Please tell me how a citizen (which the bar owner claimed to be) does not know what he was doing would be taken as an offense? Anyone with any sense would know that to fly a forigen nations flag over the one of the nation you are in is an offense in any country.

""anti-Hispanic sentiment sweeping the country""

Meaning I have no argument that is in the right so I will play the race card.

Essjayess

posted 10/12/07 @ 8:51 PM EST

You want freedom of expression? It's very simple; that veteran was using his "freedom of expression" to adjust the attitude of that bar owner. And any law, including the Flag Code, is not just symbolic, it is law. Here's something else to chew on: that bar owner was displaying a foreign flag over the American flag, an act of disrespect and contempt to America and to Americans, and thus should be considered a hate crime.

Jason

posted 10/12/07 @ 9:46 PM EST

Although I agree that the manner in which Jim Brossard removed the two flags is disgraceful to any country's flags, I do not agree with the article stating that the "purely symbolic" aspect of the American flag being violated is an everyday occurrence that the law over looks. The symbolism of the flag, depending on the form of the flag, dictates the reaction of people and the law. This cannot be misconstrued!
The author of this article contradicts themselves by stating constitutional laws or limited aspects of symbolism that makes no sense. If "Brossard desecrated the Constitution of which the Stars and Stripes is but an emblem," then surely the author is stating that the Constitution is not harmed since, in their opinion, the Starts and Stripes is but a mere emblem, not a symbol of the United States Constitution.
And we cannot assume the intentions of the bar owner. There are no quotes or evidence to base your claim that he flew "the American flag as a sign of love for this nation (The United States of America)." The author of this article could of instead said the bar owner "probably" flew BOTH the Mexican and American flag for love of their heritage, and nation respectfully. But instead, the author ignorantly stated that the American Flag is just a symbol that even federal law does not recognize. The hate crime of the Mexican flag is most definitely unjust, but the American flag cannot be generalized as a symbol that can be freely used as a means to focus on a hate crime just because it is constantly violated. Focus on the hate crime and the person who committed it, the issue at hand.
I am not going to assume you are a Veteran of the Armed Services (United States Military), nor an immigrant. But I am both, and I can tell you, that I am thankful that I live in a country that ALLOWS me to burn my flag, if I so desire too, make a statement against my country supporting my right to freedom of speech per the Unites States Constitution, and does NOT allow me burn another country's flag in order for our people and country to respect other nations around the world!

???

posted 10/13/07 @ 3:20 AM EST

Originally posted by

Jason

Although I agree that the manner in which Jim Brossard removed the two flags is disgraceful to any country's flags, I do not agree with the article stating that the "purely symbolic" aspect of the American flag being violated is an everyday occurrence that the law over looks. The symbolism of the flag, depending on the form of the flag, dictates the reaction of people and the law. This cannot be misconstrued!
The author of this article contradicts themselves by stating constitutional laws or limited aspects of symbolism that makes no sense. If "Brossard desecrated the Constitution of which the Stars and Stripes is but an emblem," then surely the author is stating that the Constitution is not harmed since, in their opinion, the Starts and Stripes is but a mere emblem, not a symbol of the United States Constitution.
And we cannot assume the intentions of the bar owner. There are no quotes or evidence to base your claim that he flew "the American flag as a sign of love for this nation (The United States of America)." The author of this article could of instead said the bar owner "probably" flew BOTH the Mexican and American flag for love of their heritage, and nation respectfully. But instead, the author ignorantly stated that the American Flag is just a symbol that even federal law does not recognize. The hate crime of the Mexican flag is most definitely unjust, but the American flag cannot be generalized as a symbol that can be freely used as a means to focus on a hate crime just because it is constantly violated. Focus on the hate crime and the person who committed it, the issue at hand.
I am not going to assume you are a Veteran of the Armed Services (United States Military), nor an immigrant. But I am both, and I can tell you, that I am thankful that I live in a country that ALLOWS me to burn my flag, if I so desire too, make a statement against my country supporting my right to freedom of speech per the Unites States Constitution, and does NOT allow me burn another country's flag in order for our people and country to respect other nations around the world!



did you read the part where the author said that these "federal laws" wont hold up in court? that makes them symbolic laws. the law about hanging an american flag lower than the flag of another country IS on the same wavelength as using the flag for advertising purposes, as the author states. so what are we going to do, prosecute all the people that use the flag in commercials? no, because the law is symbolic. get it?

the veteran couldve acted in many more respectful ways to show his disapproval of the bars flags but instead he decided that two wrongs should make a right, which i learned doesnt work when i was 4. he should face penalty for his actions.

Rick

posted 10/13/07 @ 3:10 AM EST

The whole incident strikes me as jingoism and xenophobia masked as patriotism. Mr. Broussard should be ashamed of himself. Veteran or not, Mr. Broussard has no right to deface or destroy other people's property. Many of us are veterans; some of us are war veterans. That gives us the same rights everyone else has, no more.

If he is really a veteran, Mr. Broussard should have a deeper appreciation of the Constitution he swore to defend. In this case, he need understand only the First Amendment. The bar owner had a perfect right to fly the American and Mexican flags together. He should have learned that in high school ... if he got that far in school.

There is a proper way to display two or more countries' flags along with the American flag and Mr. Broussard should know what it is. Assuming he did get to high school, he probably saw it on the stage of the school auditorium.

What was a TV news crew doing there to capture Mr. Broussard's "spontaneous" act of unbridled patriotism? That seems like a highly unlikely coincidence. There's a story behind this story, I think.

jeff

posted 10/13/07 @ 8:35 AM EST

I really can't believe people are actually agreeing with this guys actions. You can't just rip down people's property because the symbolism is "disrespectful." Just because the guy is a veteran does not mean he is the enforcer of the flag rules for everyone else. I saw this news story, and people like this want to make me piss on the flag and burn it right in front of him.

Jim

posted 10/14/07 @ 10:35 AM EST

Originally posted by

jeff

I really can't believe people are actually agreeing with this guys actions. You can't just rip down people's property because the symbolism is "disrespectful." Just because the guy is a veteran does not mean he is the enforcer of the flag rules for everyone else. I saw this news story, and people like this want to make me piss on the flag and burn it right in front of him.

I'm betting you won't Jeff. I'm also betting you have been told how to think for years. But, do me a favor? Please let me know if you decide to go through with it, I'd love to be there.

jeff

posted 10/14/07 @ 2:40 PM EST

Originally posted by

jeff

I'm betting you won't Jeff. I'm also betting you have been told how to think for years. But, do me a favor? Please let me know if you decide to go through with it, I'd love to be there.





Jim, I'm betting you must be the type of person who puts words in people's mouths, but you can't do it over the internet, because what I said is typed right there (and was quoted right in front of you when you replied). I never said I would go across the country just to piss off this idiot. I said it "makes me want to."

I'm not sure what you mean by people telling me how to think for years, and what made you come to that conclusion. Maybe it's because my reaction to this news story was so common-sense, that other people hold it as well? I have only been influenced by what I've been told all my life, and everyone else has as well. The difference is, my attitude about the flag was influenced by my schools, when they made a big deal about folding flags, and the pledge of allegiance. I've never seen a big deal in all this symbolism, and never took it seriously.

I'm a lot smarter than you think, Jim. But, do me a favor? Please go f*ck yourself.

Jim

posted 10/14/07 @ 6:08 PM EST

Originally posted by

jeff

I really can't believe people are actually agreeing with this guys actions. You can't just rip down people's property because the symbolism is "disrespectful." Just because the guy is a veteran does not mean he is the enforcer of the flag rules for everyone else. I saw this news story, and people like this want to make me piss on the flag and burn it right in front of him.

Good job Jeff! I think you made my point perfectly!

rodica

posted 10/13/07 @ 2:53 PM EST

By no means can an illegal action be corrected by another illegal one

Jim

posted 10/14/07 @ 10:24 AM EST

Those who criticize the reaction to Mr. Brossard's actions fail to see the anger building in America over illegal immigration. It also helps to tell the backstory about immigration raids in Reno and the Hispanic outcry that followed. The question most americans are asking is why do hispanics cry foul when we decide to finally enforce our laws? When, in that climate, someone sees a Mexican flag flying above an American one, it's bound to make them angry. This wink, wink, nod, nod immigration policy has been going on for over 20 years, and americans who have lived a little, and think for themselves have had to endure it. To defend illegal immigration and non-enforcement is to condone all the illegal immigrants that die trying to get here. It also condones all the people killed by illegals once they are here. Not to mention our own poor who have to directly compete for jobs (a race to the bottom). No matter how you slice it, americans are fed up and aren't going to take it anymore.

???

posted 10/14/07 @ 9:45 PM EST

Originally posted by

Jim

Those who criticize the reaction to Mr. Brossard's actions fail to see the anger building in America over illegal immigration. It also helps to tell the backstory about immigration raids in Reno and the Hispanic outcry that followed. The question most americans are asking is why do hispanics cry foul when we decide to finally enforce our laws? When, in that climate, someone sees a Mexican flag flying above an American one, it's bound to make them angry. This wink, wink, nod, nod immigration policy has been going on for over 20 years, and americans who have lived a little, and think for themselves have had to endure it. To defend illegal immigration and non-enforcement is to condone all the illegal immigrants that die trying to get here. It also condones all the people killed by illegals once they are here. Not to mention our own poor who have to directly compete for jobs (a race to the bottom). No matter how you slice it, americans are fed up and aren't going to take it anymore.


your comment doesnt really pertain to the article. great, americans are fed up over immigration-- although im an american and im not fed up with the citizens, im fed up with OUR government, but whatever. we'll leave that debate be for an argument that it actually pertains to.
Now onto THIS article, apparently the bar owner was a legal citizen. the *%&&^$ veteran cannot go treating a citizen's property however he feels like just because hes angered by the problem of immigration, although youre assuming thats what he was angry about in the first place. as i said before, two wrongs dont make a right. maybe it was wrong for the bar owner to raise that flag over ours, maybe it wasnt, but it certainly WASNT right to rip it down and leave it lying in the dirt, no matter how "fed up americans are over illegal immigration."

get it?

Jason

posted 10/17/07 @ 9:00 PM EST

Dear ???,
Why yes, I read the article. Thanks for the question. Did you understand my posting? Probably not.
I do agree that there are some aspects that are overlooked concerning the flag. Marc Leepson's book, "Flag, An American Biograpy" addresses the fact that the federal laws are overlooked. The aspect that you should have seen was that the federal flag code is not entirely all symbolic. Yes, the enforcement of that law fails in the Supreme Court, but how the symbolism is viewed dictates the outcome of actions of people at large.
I believe we can BOTH agree that, when larger issues are at hand, the American Flag's symbolism is interconnected (right or wrong) to whatever or whomever is involved. Then the symbolism and concern over the federal law is raised and questioned. Although, "the hanging of the American flag lower that another countries flag IS NOT on the same wavelength as an advertisment."
For instance, the burning of the flag verses advertisments using the flag reach the Supreme Court more, demonstrating that they are not identical in the importance of the law. You can generalize that nothing is done if you do both (via federal law yes), but there are more cases connected with burning of the flag than any other desecrations related, but not charged, arrests. These cases receive arrests based on State crimes, while advertizing receive no comparable arrests to the later. The Broussard crime is an injustice of tresspassing and theft, but also of human ignorance. So are flag codes ever prosecuted through federal law? No, you are correct. But the fact that they are there and people are prosecute differently against the code shows that they are not on the same wavelength.
I'm happy that when you were 4 you learned two wrongs don't make a right. Good for you. And yes, I agree that he should be arrested for his crime, you did not need to restate it since I agreed with you in my first posting. Get it?

John

posted 10/18/07 @ 12:14 PM EST

Some of you people just don't get it do you. Freedom of speech does not equate to the freedom to do anything you damn well please. I don't immediately recall the dumbass judicial decisions that opened that gate, but the judges responsible for this downhill spiral were overstepping their bounds. Their job is to ensure the law is interpreted correctly in a court of law...not to make law or adjust it. That is our legislators' jobs. In essence, what the bar owner did in flying the Mexican flag over ours is claim that piece of territory in the name of Mexico, not exercise any freedom of speech. Look it up!

Some of you say Mr. Brossard handled the situation poorly. I guess an argument could be made for that, but how many of you think our chickenshit judicial system and/or politicians would have done anything about the federal law broken by the bar owner? Some of you are going to keep protecting this so-called "freedom of speech" until you're forced to protect it in Spanish. "Press one to argue your case in Spanish. Press two to kiss our beloved country goodbye."

Anna830

posted 10/23/07 @ 1:51 PM EST

"violated thousands of times per day: using the flag in advertising, placing it upon clothing, or even flying the American flag above the flag of a foreign nation on the same flagpole - all these acts are 'illegal.'"
So... this makes it right for the bar owner to do wrong? Seriously, majority of people using the flag against the code are doing so in a proud patriotic way. Wrong according the code book but done in pride. As for Mr bar owner... totally disrespect and how can you condone his actions. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Matt

posted 10/27/07 @ 8:27 AM EST

I sit at my computer at 4:45 in the morning reading this article and the comments posted with it. I wonder towards the future of this country and this democracy which I have protected, debated, criticized and somedays just let completely frustrate me. As an American, (not a African American, a Hispanic American, a German American or any other sub-branch of American) I support Mr Brossard's convicts where I may not support his actions. We as a nation have become very divided by those whom pursue ther own agendas. I see the eventual downfall of the United States of America. I have two wonderful daughters attending MIlls College and the Univeristy of San Francisco, I fear for their futures and their generations to follow because our country is changing and very little of it for the good.

I am 42 years old, which I state only as measuring stick. Personally I am happy that anyone wants to hold onto their heritage and love their past but I am greatly offended by the bar owner who did not have the common sense that his actions would be viewed by some as an afront to this country and to those who consider themselves patriots of it. Foreign flags flying over the soil of the USA without proper observance of the flag code angers me to great depths. I will make it simple, if you are so proud of your homeland that you choose to fly ot fly its flag over the Stars and Stripes over without the Stars and Stripes, please take that flag back to its national soil and fly it there with pride. You get to choose what you want to be and if it is first and foremost not an American, go home. I know it sounds harsh and ignorant but I am tired of rampant politcial correctness in this country, I am tired of the fact that I can not say Merry Christmas because someone may be offended or that Father's Day has been cancelled in schools because some mother did not want have to tell her child why he has no daddy. We try so hard to offend no one that we offend everyone.

I close by saying that I begrudge no one the opportunity to come to the United States of America to pursue their dreams and better their lives. I just request that you become part of the solution of uniting this country and not choose to buy into the dividing forces in the country serving themselves and getting rich off the backs they so claim to be protecting.

Teresa

posted 11/02/07 @ 8:41 PM EST

Amen Matt! Enough said.


Originally posted by

Matt

I sit at my computer at 4:45 in the morning reading this article and the comments posted with it. I wonder towards the future of this country and this democracy which I have protected, debated, criticized and somedays just let completely frustrate me. As an American, (not a African American, a Hispanic American, a German American or any other sub-branch of American) I support Mr Brossard's convicts where I may not support his actions. We as a nation have become very divided by those whom pursue ther own agendas. I see the eventual downfall of the United States of America. I have two wonderful daughters attending MIlls College and the Univeristy of San Francisco, I fear for their futures and their generations to follow because our country is changing and very little of it for the good.

I am 42 years old, which I state only as measuring stick. Personally I am happy that anyone wants to hold onto their heritage and love their past but I am greatly offended by the bar owner who did not have the common sense that his actions would be viewed by some as an afront to this country and to those who consider themselves patriots of it. Foreign flags flying over the soil of the USA without proper observance of the flag code angers me to great depths. I will make it simple, if you are so proud of your homeland that you choose to fly ot fly its flag over the Stars and Stripes over without the Stars and Stripes, please take that flag back to its national soil and fly it there with pride. You get to choose what you want to be and if it is first and foremost not an American, go home. I know it sounds harsh and ignorant but I am tired of rampant politcial correctness in this country, I am tired of the fact that I can not say Merry Christmas because someone may be offended or that Father's Day has been cancelled in schools because some mother did not want have to tell her child why he has no daddy. We try so hard to offend no one that we offend everyone.

I close by saying that I begrudge no one the opportunity to come to the United States of America to pursue their dreams and better their lives. I just request that you become part of the solution of uniting this country and not choose to buy into the dividing forces in the country serving themselves and getting rich off the backs they so claim to be protecting.

Sean

posted 3/12/09 @ 2:11 PM EST

i think what he did was a thing that alot of americans should be proud of it it was me i woulda burned the mexican flag ignorance or not they had no right to do that if that bar is self owned they had to of been here long enough to notice that the american flag is higher then every other flag in america and that means he did it outta direspect if he claims to be a citizen then he should at least now the laws i do not care if he flies his flag but the american flag comes first i think that Jim is a hero and that he took care of himself properly and the police would nto have done anything about it so i think "WAY TO GO JIM"

Gloria Capel

posted 3/21/09 @ 7:24 AM EST

I thought this debate was about them, as opposed to featuring them. Whoops.

Guastella Queener

posted 4/16/09 @ 1:15 PM EST

A think this new storie have some mistakes.
  • Displaying 1 - 21 of 21

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